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I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

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Author Replies
Al B
03/25/10 08:21 PM  
Brett custersianus
.....a new brett is upon us !!!!

I recently acquired this strain and currently propagating up (when I told SteveG I thought is eyeballs were coming out of his sockets).

I added some in a secondary brew for a trial run - sensory analysis to come.

E. Pluribus Funk

1vertical
03/26/10 01:10 AM  
Re: Brett custersianus
I was reading about strains of Brett, and found one

called B. Custersii...could this be the same critter?

And I wanna know the sensory feedback ....

jaymo
03/26/10 01:51 AM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Exciting!
Al B
03/26/10 07:52 AM  
Re: Brett custersianus
I believe custersii & custersianus are the same. From the starter culture I distinctly smell fruity esters of peaches and mango with biscuity yeast aroma.
mtc
03/26/10 09:56 AM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Very cool, Al!
brewinhard
03/26/10 05:17 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
AWESOME!! really looking forward to hearing what the aroma/flavor characteristics will be like... where did you culture this one from?
Al B
03/26/10 08:43 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
<<where did you culture this one from?>>

This was a freeze-dried deposit from a collection agency.

Sorta like a seed bank - but for microbes.

brewinhard
03/27/10 09:05 AM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Could this one possibly make it into the next bugfarm offering?
explosivebeer
03/27/10 12:56 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
That sounds like a great addition Al. Nice work, as usual!
Joelle
03/29/10 11:33 AM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Thanks for the continued research Al! This one sounds yummy.
derfburg
03/29/10 11:52 AM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Hope I can get in on some of there great sounding offerings now.
tankdeer
03/29/10 02:36 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Wow rad. I'll be keeping an eye on this one.
1vertical
03/30/10 10:43 AM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Al B, would the description in it's proper taxonomic

format be this

"Dekkera anomala Smith et van Grinsven, teleomorph deposited as Brettanomyces anomalus Custers, anamorph"

??

Al B
03/30/10 07:26 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
I would deduct that "Smith et van Grinsven" are the depositors of D. anomala where Brett anomulus is the proper taxonomy (deposited by a dude named Custers).

I'll look further.

Al B
03/30/10 07:42 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Yeah, NRRL Y-1415 or ATCC 10559 is the type strain for that description (deposited by M.T.J. Custers).

Type strain is B. anomulus is this case.

B. custersianus is a type strain different than this. It was isolated as a brewery contaminant.

Also, fyi

ATCC20323

Organism: Dekkera anomala Smith et van Grinsven, teleomorph deposited as Brettanomyces claussenii Custers, anamorph

Alternate State: Brettanomyces anomalus Custers, anamorph

PRODUCES CITRIC ACID CITRATE !!!!!!

Al Brett

brewinhard
03/30/10 07:45 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Is this the only brett strain capable of producing citric acid on its own, without the aid of other "spoiling" microorganisms?
Al B
03/30/10 07:55 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Probably not, but was listed and has been a significant topic here in the past (kudos to Baums if I recall).

wetherel
04/03/10 09:25 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Here's the recipe on how to make citric acid from Brett Clausseni:

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1182795520&pg=29&tpg=1&add=1

1vertical
04/04/10 03:22 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Thanks wetherel, I copied that recipe to my file

in case I need to make some sour stuff sometime.

May just be a handy dandy thing

Baums
04/05/10 10:42 AM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Yeah, the citric acid thing would be cool to understand. In particular it seems *possible* that citric acid (or esters of citric acid) are signficant contributors to the flavor of lambic.

But, it would also be surprising if this were not discovered in decades of research by KU-Leuven.

If anyone out there has a way to measure citric acid, it would be great if you could test some Cantillon or Drie Fontienen...

ChadYak
05/07/10 02:12 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
its been a long time....

Al B, very cool to hear you snagged the Brettanomyces custersianus strain... Any update to the brew, sensory? Was it primary or secondary you were first looking at?

To clarify a few things... In brewing we use B.bruxellensis and B. anomalus. There are a total of 5 the two already mentioned along with B.custersianus that Al now has and B, nardenensis and B. nanus. The last two appear to have been cultured from soft drinks and are not mentioned in any relevant brewing/winemaking/ethanol producing literature

The other names like lambicus, claussenii, custersii, etc.. were how they were first classified but re-classification has occurred based on genetic studies. So B.claussenii is an anomalus and B.lambicus is B. bruxellensis genetically. Its just a name used by the yeast companies, probably they use it as its how it was first banked.. or the source which it came from and what the original collector called it at the time. that's a little about the taxonomy of the genus Brettanomyces. I have a good paper that explains it clearly if anyone still needs to read more.. chadyakobsonatgmaildotcom

That I'm aware of no prof brewers are using B. custersianus. I've only seen it available from the ATCC. A couple of literature papers mention it but I can't recall anything significant about its use mostly just that it was cultured from in a wine. So have at it!

It would be great for many more strains to become cultured and available. Al has a good collection going by now, and he could tell you how each strain behaves.. for himself, replicating is slightly harder especially in the homebrew setting and there are just too many variables to say without a doubt this strain does exactly this each time.. there are characteristics of each strain which it has the ability to produce and depending on raw ingredients, and process the same strain will behave to its ability. In this there is some consistency noticed between strains.

As for the citric acid, I'll revisit some of this by resurrecting the old thread.. But no that is not the only strain to produce citric acid. Every single strain including Saccharomyces produces citric acid.. inside its cell. What happens is acids are produced in large enough enough amounts that they are excreted outside the cell. Not necessarily during the citric acid cycle which all living organisms that use oxygen cells actively participate in as it's part of cellular respiration and yaddi yaddi. It appears that some Brettanomyces may produce citric acid possibly by another means.. maybe not though. I have seen the patent.. and it produces 1% citric acid.. 1% is nothing you could never pick this up in a beer.. compared to all the amounts of other compounds.. It would need to be in higher concentrations.. synergism of compounds with citric acid plausible but I'm not convinced

Baums, I was not able to look at citric acid production by Brettanomyces in my research.. mostly because no except you and I cared.. As far as I can tell no one has ever looked at the amount of citric acid in a beer.. maybe you'll dig something up, but modern literature and popular brewing literature make no mention. It has definitely never been looked at in any of the research done on Sour ales or lambics.. Charlie has student out at UC davis right now doing research on Lambic type brews I believe.. contact him see if he will. Its expensive though... and has not been looked at and requires setting up samples for GC running it and getting a standard curve then looking for it in the beer then looking at the organism.. for what? Nothing as far as the brewing industry is concerned.. and Lambic brewers they could careless.. Really you all care more the prof brewers and that is exciting.. You all lead a lot of what is being talked about... Its not all correct but at least your inquisitive and asking questions!

I have looked at the compounds and have some new theories for all of you were the pineapple and fruity aromas are coming from and you'll be surprised which strains are producing them and which strains can't primary ferment out a beer in 35 days...

I just hijack this thread and its not my interest to do that, simply I wanted to write with my excitement for Al in securing this strain and his true pioneer work that he is doing!

Chad

JWW
05/07/10 03:24 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Citric Acid is probably just an overflow metabolite, similar to alcohol with Saccharomyces and acetate/lactate for E coli.

Let me explain with E. coli for example since that is what I know best. E. coli will produce acetate/lactate once the electron transport chain has maxed out its capacity for electrons from the TCA cycle. So as a storage mechanism, the cell switches its metabolism to produce acetate/lactate and excretes that out of the cell (also helps keep competitors away by lowering pH) for later use when it needs the energy. The reason why I say acetate/lactate is because it depends on the environmental pH which one gets produced in quanitity. If the pH is near 7 then the product will be acetate, if it is lower then it favors lactate. This organism also produces alcohol, succinate, and formate in smaller quanities as well.

Not only can the type of acid fluctuate, but the quantity can as well. Each organism has a max growth rate that it can grow at. If conditions are right and the bug is allowed to grow at maximum capacity then higher concentrations of these overflow metabolites (acids) are produced due to the inbalance of electrons between the TCA cycle and Electron transport chain. Think Lucille Ball in the candy factory, all of the candies she missed represents overflow metabolites and all of the candies eaten represents electron transport chain. Thus if you slow the bugs growth down then you reduce the amount of overflow metabolites produced.

I suspect that this is the case with Brett and would explain the variety of flavors one can get from a single strain and even more so when multiple strains and organisms are employed.

ChadYak
05/07/10 05:43 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
JWW, exactly! That was so well put. I tend to ramble on. I feel that is exactly how, if any, citric acid is produced by Brettanomyces strains.

Its along the same lines as why Saccharomyces produces acetic acid also (just not at threshold levels) and why Brettanomyces does produce small amounts of lactic acid also.

Since it has been studied with e. coli it's explainable... as it hasn't been with Brett or many other organism, one can only speculate but it seems to be the common way acids are formed by organisms.. even in our own muscles..

jaymo
05/07/10 06:46 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
<<Each organism has a max growth rate that it can grow at. If conditions are right and the bug is allowed to grow at maximum capacity then higher concentrations of these overflow metabolites (acids) are produced...>>

Would this be affected in beer fermentation by both pitching rate and temperature?

JWW
05/07/10 08:54 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Pitching rate would not directly affect the growth rate as how quickly a cell grows depends on nutrient availability and electron acceptor availability. The only way pitching rate would have an affect is the duration the cell can grow at maximum growth rate. The lower the pitch rate the more nutrients per cell thus an extended time the cell can grow maximally, if there is a high pitch rate then nutrients will run out more quickly thus reducing the growth rate from its maximum.

Temperature is a bit more tricky because it does directly affect the cells growth rate. Cells have a preferred temp. and as you get colder from that temp, the lower the growth rate will be. But the tricky bit is that with temperature everything becomes slower. So given the exact same media only varied in temperature, the growth rate may be halved, but the metabolic spill over will still be the same.

What affects the growth rate the most is the type of carbon source (sugar) available. The more complex the carbon source is then the slower the growth rate will be. So by this thinking, if you wanted to produce more acid then you would want to have simpler sugars available. Though I must say, I have not yet tried to manipulate Brett in this manner nor have I heard of it being done this way.

Al B
05/08/10 10:20 AM  
Re: Brett custersianus
Chad

Thanks for the expert input - always welcome (JWW too).

B. custersianus was obtained lyophilized from a source I'm not a liberty to put in writing. I wasn't going to cough out 200$ to ATCC.

After propagating, I added it to a secondary biere de garde. Some light pellicles are starting to form. Smells fruity, What I think is peaches or mango. I haven't checked pH yet.

Al B
08/07/10 04:17 PM  
Re: Brett custersianus
So its been another 3 months....Acidity has increased - kinda citrusy although I can't say citric acid is the cause. It is however still fruity & no barnyard - much like clausenii / anomulus strains.

Seems more complex than lactic acid for sure. I think its ready to drink.......

Al B. custersianus

 
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