Welcome to the homeBBBrew board!
Like the BBB, the homeBBBrew board is not a club, just a place to talk about making beer. Is there a swap you would like to see happen? If we can find a few others who have something similar then lets do it!

NO SPECIFIC REASON FOR THIS LINK...
I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

PASSWORD PROTECTION: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!
YOUR BBB USERNAME AND PASSWORD WILL NOT WORK ON THIS BOARD! If you want to post, you need to read this.

HomeBBBrewBoard
HotLinks!
Brettanomyces Brewing
E-Symposium Transcript!

Trouble making Trappists?
Discover Liquid Candy Syrup!
See what color impact to expect from liquid candy.

Search for:
Page:  1 2
Author Replies
explosivebeer
05/06/10 10:51 AM  
Best Commercial Dregs
I searched the archives but couldn't find a list of viable commercial dregs to play with. Obviously there's older, unpasteurized Rodenbach, Orval, (most?) Cantillon, the new American sours (RR, NB, LA, etc.).

What other beers have interesting, viable bugs to utilize? Does anyone have a somewhat comprehensive list of what's available?

Rob B
05/06/10 11:06 AM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
I can't tell you exactly what bugs are in them, but Jolly Pumpkin dregs have worked fantastically for me. I have done several beers that had White Labs or Wyeast bugs, but when I have added Jolly Pumpkin dregs the beers get so much more complex. I also had good luck with the dregs from Avery 15.
explosivebeer
05/06/10 12:34 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Oh right. Good idea. I've been meaning to try using Jolly Pumpkin dregs for awhile and always seem to forget about them.

As for the Avery 15, I've been a little underwhelmed with the two bottles I've tried but maybe they hadn't had enough time to develop more interesting characters.

CASK1
05/06/10 02:44 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Here's a list that might be useful. Wish it was more up-to-date, but there should be some useful info in here. Good luck.

http://www.nada.kth.se/~alun/Beer/Bottle-Yeasts/

tankdeer
05/06/10 06:22 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Jolly Pumpkin is a good one. I'm also a fan of Orval, Cantillon, and Russian River. All have given me good results
danger
06/13/10 07:31 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
anyone know anything about the contents of moinette blonde dregs? is it just dupont's blend? seems different.
Mike T
06/14/10 09:37 AM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
No idea on the Moinette Blonde, I doubt they have more than 1 yeast blend going though. Maybe it is just fermented differently or the different recipe leads to a different fermentation character.

Here is a list of sour/funky beers with viable dregs I've been working on: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/06/harvesting-sour-beer-bottle-dregs.html

If anyone has more to add (I'm trying to avoid one-offs) please let me know.

danger
06/14/10 10:56 AM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
i just picked up a bottle of st louis fond tradition gueuze and it doesnt look like there is any sediment. will look again.
Mike T
06/14/10 11:54 AM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Hmmm, the importer says "This is, for the most part, a traditional Gueze, brewed in small batches..."

Seems suspicious to me, the brewery also isn't a member of HORAL... thoughts?

danger
06/14/10 12:30 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
checked again. its been in the fridge 2 days now and there isnt any sediment, and it is pretty clear. i dont know what HORAL is.
tankdeer
06/14/10 12:38 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_council_for_artisanal_lambik_style_beers

http://www.horal.be/?language=en

Basically kinda like a lambic brewers/blenders guild. They did a limited release HORAL Mega Blend Gueze which was a blend of lambics from 8 of the different members. Easily one of the best Gueuzes I've ever had. Simply fantastic

Mike T
06/14/10 02:36 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
You have to make at least 1 "traditional" Lambic/Gueuze to be in the group (as I understand, Lindemans for example makes Cuvee Rene for example). This low threshold prompted Cantillon not to join. So not being in it isn't proof of anything, but it is suspicious.
danger
06/14/10 03:14 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
i see... have you guys had it? did it have sediment then? i picked up some cantillon vigneronne and iris in addition to the st louis, so i guess ill have something to pull dregs from anyway. will be brewing up some lambic next week.
tankdeer
06/14/10 04:17 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Yes, I've had the Horal Mega Blend Gueuze. Yes, it had dregs in it, and yes, it was amazing.

Good point Mike, I had forgotten about Cantillon. But they also seem to pride themselves in being a bit different than the other lambic brewers of the area.

danger
06/14/10 04:53 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
i dont want to know what you had to do to get your hands on that, but i was actually asking about others' experiences with the st louis fond tradition.
explosivebeer
06/14/10 06:08 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Thanks for maintaining that list Mike. I'll bookmark it for future reference.
Mike T
06/14/10 07:09 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
I've had Fond Tradition a couple times not the best Gueuze but tasty (especially for the price). I thought it had dregs... but I'm not positive. If it is pasteurized there isn't any harm in tossing it in, the Cantillon will get the job done either way.
tankdeer
06/14/10 07:42 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
<<i dont want to know what you had to do to get your hands on that, but i was actually asking about others' experiences with the st louis fond tradition.>>

Ah, got it. I actually picked it up at the Nacht Van de Grote Dorst in Belgium. But I believe you can still order it from the House of Gueuze.

I've had the St Louis, but it's been quite a while. Although I was under the impression that all of their beers were pasteurized.

jalaffler
06/17/10 02:58 AM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Per Oliver, Dupont uses a centrifuge to remove the majority of the primary mixed culture used for fermentation and then doses a bottling yeast.
Ross
06/17/10 07:35 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
jalaffler;

Any ideas as to which yeast they use for bottling? I've heard it's a lager yeast.

Adrian
07/01/10 04:25 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Avery 15. Was this made with Brettanomyces bruxellensis? Lambicus? blend?

I didn't care for the beer when it was fresh. If I recall correctly I thought there was too much earthy funk and that's about it.

Last night I opened my last bottle and, wow! The leathery funkiness was prominent, but subdued and there was a distinct lemon-like freshness to the beer. Very good.

Anyway, is there a possibility I could culture the dregs for a batch of homebrew or are they probably dead after sitting in alcohol for 2 years? If I wanted to use it for bottling (like Orval), how big of a "starter" is recommended?

jahfool
07/01/10 04:35 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Avery 15 is supposed to be a mix of two strains cultured from a Drie Fonteinen gueuze. You can read a bit about it at the 'brettanomyces masters project' blog.

http://brettanomyces.blogspot.com/2009/04/15-discoveries-and-announcements.html

ChadY
07/01/10 05:17 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
I found the Brett cells to be viable in Avery 15, and they still should be. The strain they used is the Drie strain from the Brewing Science institute. It's the best strain for primary fermentation there is, ferments fast in about 10-12 days usually, and lots of commercial breweries are using it. After a while the Drie strain appears to form other daughter cells which are similar but different, they don't primary quite as well at least as fast but has better aromas. Although Avery pitched the yeast as a single strain I always found two different colony morphologies when culturing it up. The second morphology which I call the matted morphology is the strain which creates the lemony citrus type aromas, it develops after a good amount of time unless you have the matted strain and pitch it in large enough quantities. It will be present already if you culture up those dregs.

I had PCR identification done on both the strains I cultures and they were both B. bruxellensis strains. Brabant is a blend of the Drie strain and WY brux. Andy who works with the barrel aging program at Avery tells me he really likes the way WY B. brux develops and ages, were as he finds the Drie strain falls off after about ten months.. then again, I find it picks up after a year due to the formation of the matted type strain.

Chad

danger
07/02/10 07:18 AM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
wow that's awesome info chad. makes me think that the complexities of brett come from the mutants you described and not just original strains slowly breaking down residual sugars/dextrines.
Al B
07/02/10 09:39 AM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Chad,

I have a project w/ Goose Island & I'd like to swap Drie bretts w/ ya to compare. I'll also toss in the "other" thing you want.

Al

ChadY
07/02/10 02:30 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
danger... I've got a really great paper titled the complex nature of the Brettanomyces/Dekkera genome...if any one wants it... it makes my head spin, but it also sheds light on the complexity of this yeast... Strains put into the Brettanomyces bruxellensis "category" (its not a category but it's not the worst way of thinking about it...) anyways B. brux isolates don't even share the same number of chromosomes they can differ between 2-8... There two types of B. brux or more.. I'm really simplifying this but your hopefully getting the picture. Your thought is valid and I've had the same thought many of times. The "Drie" strain is the only one I've witnessed it with so far though.. All my other strains appear very stable actually. I'm not sure if Drie is Dekkara and I'm seeing breeding (As I've seen various morphologies formed from year old room temp stored old propagation's with it) or I believe its mutating/adapting and the matted strain is much more adapted to maturation and conditioning compared to the glossy.

I received your email Al and I'll get that going! Congrats I'm impressed as always... I hope we'll be doing "big" projects soon too!

Adrian
07/06/10 11:19 AM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
I kept the empty Avery 15 bottle in the fridge over the weekend (with foil on top). Last night I filled the bottle with 16 ounces of 1030 wort that was a little too warm (~90 degF. Oops.). I'm guessing this yeast is pretty robust and will handle the high temperature just fine. I left it on the range top and this morning the bottle temperature was about 80 degrees.

I didn't see barm or a pellicle this morning but the wort was a little hazy and bottle smelled a little cider-ish. We'll see.

My plan is to grow this up one more time and then save some of the yeast in old (but sanitary) White Labs vials. Questions:

1)How long will the vial yeast last in the fridge? A few months? Longer?

2) I want to make 5 gallons of low gravity Saison using a mixture of Fermentis T-58 and this Avery 15 culture. Recommendations for pitching amounts?

Thanks!

Adrian
07/07/10 01:23 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
I haven't taken a gravity reading yet, but so far I haven't seen much activity. A couple times a day, I've shaken up the bottle, but I have yet to see any C02 bubbles, or yeast head form. Still smells a little cidery and vaguely sour (unless that's my imagination), but that's about it. No pungent yeast smell.

Slow acting or dead? Tonight will mark 48 hours since pitching. Should I take a gravity sample or let it go longer? Or assume everything is kosher and step up the starter and add a couple more pints of wort tonight (to a larger vessel of course)?

tom sawyer
07/07/10 01:49 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Depending on how much live yeast was left in the bottle, I think I'd let it go until you see activity. Pitching the dregs of a bottle in a pint of wort is diluting quite a bit, and it will most likely take at least a few days to get going and maybe a couple more before its using up the sugars in the wort. Only at that point would I step up the culture. Seems like yeast don't like to be floating around all by their lonesome, for some reason they are social creatures.

I also don't know if Brett are as fast-growing as Sacch yeasts. My guess is that they are maybe slightly slower. But even if they are as fast, two days isn't unusual s far as lag time. We often see this when pitching dry yeast in a batch of beer, and in those situations there are adequate cell numbers.

Adrian
07/07/10 02:13 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Thanks for the suggestions. This is the first time I've built a starter from old bottle dregs. And it's my first go at building up Brett. Next time I'll start with half a pint of starter wort.

I was hoping to use it this weekend, but it sounds like it will best if I let it go at it's own pace and save this yeast for a different batch of beer.

Also, I understand that Brett cells are smaller than Sacch cells. As such, the yeast slurry will appear smaller than if it was a slurry of sacch. Is this correct? Does this affect yeast pitching calculations? Using, for example, mrmalty.com, does one treat brett as a typical top fermenting yeast if using it as a primary fermenter?

In other words, would a 1 quart starter be sufficient in adequately fermenting 5 gallons of 1050 wort?

ChadY
07/07/10 02:15 PM  
Re: Best Commercial Dregs
Adrian... give it a few days. Best bet is to put it in a ward dark place and forget about it. If that yeast has been chilled for a long time it will be slow to get up and going. You could maybe expect some visible activity after 3-4 days.. it will be slow though. Don't expect a pellicle not all Bretts produce pellicles so it wont tell you anything, and I don't recall either of these strains producing one. 90 degrees is pretty high but up to 95 is pretty safe for both Sacch cerevisiae and most Brett strains. I would not take any gravities from a yeast starter ever.. It will only cause infections, and wont tell you anything. Let this starter go atleast 12 days before stepping up, then each successive step up will be quicker. 7-8 days in good for both these strains to get all the way through the log phase growth and into stationary phase, then letting them sit to adapt to anaerobic conditions is good too.

The aromas are from any beer you left with the dregs, the bottles itself, you blended wort with a beer that has great aroma.. Drank it on tap last night at Avery actually!

So sit back and relax and the yeasties will get to it.. if after 12 days you have seen no sign of growth.. Then they're decided no mas! What is the bottle covered with? something to let CO2 out?

Chad

  Page:  1 2
Return to Forum

Post a Reply
Your Name:
Subject:
Message Body:


 
   
Username

Password

Around Bruges in 80 Beers: 2nd Edition

Around London in 80 Beers

Around Brussels in 80 Beers


Babblebelt contributors in attendance: