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mikehahn
05/20/10 12:45 PM  
adding raspberries to lambic
I have a year old lambic with brett and pedio and I am going to add raspberries. Which way do you prefer: 1- Adding directly to the primary

2- Racking into a new carboy and leaving the dregs behind, then adding fruit

I have done it both ways, just wondering what you guys prefer.

DanM
05/20/10 03:13 PM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
Well, I have had success both ways, however I prefer adding the fruit directly. I would think if you move the beer to a clean carboy, you will want to pull some of the dregs over as well so you have a fair amount of critters to eat the fruit.
TimC
05/20/10 06:23 PM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
For sour beers I have added fruit to primary. For clean beers I have added fruit to secondary. Looking back I can't think of any reason for this other than coordinating fermentor space (primary in buckets, secondary in carboys).

One thing I will be doing in future fruit beers is adding malo-lactic bacteria (Oenococcus oenii) to soften the malic acid from the fruit.

mikehahn
05/21/10 12:57 AM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
Thanks guys!
tom sawyer
05/21/10 11:43 AM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
Does your year-old lambic still have a pellicle?
mikehahn
05/21/10 11:48 AM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
Yes, it still has an oily-looking pellicle.
tom sawyer
05/21/10 12:32 PM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
I ask because I have a 9-mth-old lambic going and it has a super-thick pellicle at the top of the carboy. I will have some sour cherries within a month's time and I have to figure out how to get them in this beer. I pretty much have to rack and then add them. There isn't enough room in the carboy for a few pounds of fruit.

Good luck on your framboise. My wife loves them.

brewinhard
05/22/10 09:08 AM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
I have always found that when adding fruit to beer it is best to go on the higher end of additions per gallon as the fruit should be showcased. For sour cherries I like 2# per gallon, but would also add some dark sweet cherries for a nice richer cherry blend.
1vertical
05/22/10 06:19 PM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
Wikipedia <<A wine undergoing malolactic conversion will be cloudy due to the presence of bacteria, and may have the curious smell of buttered popcorn, due to the production of diacetyl>>

So TimC, would this be an undesirable thing in beer unless it goes away with time or somehow gets cleaned up by the yeast (Brett? Sacc?)

TimC
05/23/10 11:02 AM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
In my experience with oenococcus (a single batch of cider), I did not get any diacetyl and the end product was perfectly clear. Al B posted not too long ago (link below) that he found oenococcus in Rodenbach foederbier and NB La Folie so those two are certainly not harmed by it. I imagine that any cloudiness/diacetyl would clear out given sufficient time.

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1248705998&pg=&tpg=1#1248707669

1vertical
05/23/10 10:04 PM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
TimC, thanx for that read. It indicates the Diacetyl does get consumed by the bret.

So If I understand you correctly, the oenococcus will reduce the malo lactic profile and make the sour fruit not quite so sour? hmmmmm interesting.

tom sawyer
05/28/10 09:42 AM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
Oenococcus converts the sharper-tasting malic acid to the softer-flavored lactic acid. No ethanol production is involved, only CO2 formation. I'm wondering if it wouldn't create a more complex sourness to leave it as malic rather than convert everything to lactic which is already present in significant amounts (>400ppm). I guess it depends on just how sour you like your kriek/framboise.
danger
05/28/10 09:47 AM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
i wonder if you could use it to bottle condition.
tom sawyer
05/28/10 12:02 PM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
You'd need to know you had the right amount of malic acid, but I suppose you could. They sell paper chromatography kits for testing wine for malic and complete ML conversion.

Its also a fairly slow conversion compared to Sach eating sugar.

brewinhard
05/28/10 07:11 PM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
Tom

When you say "slow conversion", how long can it take? After adding 2# gallon of sour cherries to a pale brett beer I brewed, the beer is considerably sour and not quite as balanced as I would like. Just wondering about the timeline for the oenococcus to work. If its anything like our other critter friends then most likely a long time.

Wetherel
05/29/10 02:06 AM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
What is the cheapest way to add lots of fruit? I'm starting to think it's dried cherries: 140cal/45g for dried, 74cal/117g for fresh=5.5x weight reduction(not counting pits). So $5.50/lb for dried cheries translates to $1/lb fresh fruit, which is much cheaper than I see in the store, even in season. So a 5gal batch at 2lb/gal = $10. Not bad! http://www.google.com/m/products?source=mog&hl=en&gl=us&client=safari&q=dried%20cherries
B-Dub
05/30/10 12:19 AM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
Make sure the dried fruit is oil free. Most dried cherries and blueberries have some oil to prevent sticking/caking.

BW

tom sawyer
05/30/10 09:04 PM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
MLF of wine typically takes at least a few weeks at 70F.
brewinhard
05/31/10 08:52 AM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
Can we assume that it will take the same or about the same amount of time in beer as well? Sounds like an interesting way to get some lactic acid converted for more complex profiles.
tom sawyer
05/31/10 10:41 AM  
Re: adding raspberries to lambic
If anything I'd think a lower ABV environment might allow the bacteria to work somewhat faster.

You are converting malic to lactic. If you already have pedio then you will have plenty of lactic to begin with. I kind of think the malic might give more complexity.

 
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