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Author Replies
DerekA
08/16/10 01:41 PM  
Pedio
to all the biologists and other bug gurus out there.

I had a question regarding Pedio. I recently heard that most sours brewed via commercial sour blend would benefit from additional pedio. I was thinking of picking up a tube of pedio and getting a starter going, but then was reading about it's slow growth habits. I'd like to keep a culture of this ongoing to keep adding into my sours so I don't have to buy more of this. Any advice on the best way to do a pedio starter for the most growth?

I know oxygen free is a must.

Al B
08/16/10 08:39 PM  
Re: Pedio
There are few mediums to use for Pedio and I have tried a few. The simplest is malt starter + added yeast nutrients and has worked very well for recultured Pedio derived from Cantillon St. Lamvinus.

Matt S
08/17/10 08:16 AM  
Re: Pedio
Do you just leave the pedio in the starter and pull from there when you need it, then top it off with fresh malt starter? Do you plate pedio? How long will pedio stay "good" in a malt starter?
DerekA
08/17/10 11:06 AM  
Re: Pedio
Al, does pedio grow better in acidity? would a bit of lactic acid aid in growth? Thanks for the info.
Al B
08/17/10 07:39 PM  
Re: Pedio
Leave the Pedio in the starter - it will grow at the bottom of the tube - pull when needed. Do not bother to plate Pedio. After it grows for a few weeks, place in the cold box. You can freshen it with new starter. There's no need to get fancy with adding acidity (i.e. tomato juice or apple juice for example), it will create plenty acid anyway. I have kept my Pedio in the same tube for over a year now.

tom sawyer
08/17/10 09:36 PM  
Re: Pedio
Al would you agree with Derek's initial statement about commercial blends needing more pedio? Or is this just a shortcut to a more sour beer? I know my kriek made with Wyeast lambic blend is plenty sour at 2 years.
DerekA
08/17/10 11:58 PM  
Re: Pedio
Tom,

My Wyeast lambic's haven't turned all that sour, but that may be due to the recipe. When I've used dregs of Russian River or real Belgian Lambic dregs I've got a nice sourness. Also my sour with the Al B blend turned out nice and sour. This has kind of lead me to wonder if I was lacking a healthy pedio population in my commercial pitched sours.

Matt S
08/18/10 09:17 AM  
Re: Pedio
Is there a source for a pure Pedio strain besides Wyeast and White Labs?

Al is there a certain yeast nutrient that you think is the best?

Al B
08/18/10 04:55 PM  
Re: Pedio
Its quie possible that the Pedio Derek had was nonviable, that's always an issue. Yeast extract is probably the best nutrient to add, but one could use servomyces also to boost the levels for long term storage.
ChadYak
08/18/10 08:57 PM  
Re: Pedio
DerekA,

A good amount of commercial brewers I spoke with at CBC this past April were talking about problems with getting enough acidity in their barrel aged beers. After talking with Vinnie he's of the opinion that pedio is more aggressive at producing lactic acid and will produce amounts which aid in getting the "right" amount of acidity into a barrel aged sour beer. Biochemically this makes sense as pediococcus is homofermentive and will produce two lactate molecules for each molecule of pyruvate. I like the acidity level which come from using pediococcus and think a healthy pitch is necessary for a good sour character to develop. Also I believe a beneficial symbiosis exists when using certain lactic acids bacterias but especially pedio and Brettanomyces together.

Al, your thoughts/experiences on this?

DerekA
08/18/10 09:28 PM  
Re: Pedio
Chad,

Yes, I think you're always supposed to use pedio and brett together as pedio throws off diacetyl which the brett will help clear up. Also, when used together the brett will convert the lactic acid into ethyl lactate esters which are a big component of lambics.

tom sawyer
08/19/10 08:33 AM  
Re: Pedio
My Wyeast lambic blend threw off some serious diacetyl by about month 6, I remember wondering if it wasn't ruined. At a year it was gone, and I have a nice sourness comparable to Cantillon. I wonder, are people wanting the sourness before a year to two years? Is this about speeding the process or are things sometimes just not sour?
DerekA
08/19/10 10:01 AM  
Re: Pedio
No, not speeding up, just not that sour.
Matt S
08/19/10 10:08 AM  
Re: Pedio
Al when you say yeast extract is this what you are talking about or something different?

http://www.cynmar.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=CIM89195

Mike T
08/19/10 01:56 PM  
Re: Pedio
"Yes, I think you're always supposed to use pedio and brett together as pedio throws off diacetyl which the brett will help clear up. Also, when used together the brett will convert the lactic acid into ethyl lactate esters which are a big component of lambics."

I had always heard that as well, but oddly when I was talking to the brewers at Cascade they told me they use a house lactic culture to sour their barrel aged beers without Brett. They mentioned that some of their beers get sick, so there must be some Pedio in there (they were non-committal), but the beers don't have a buttery character. Otherwise their process is pretty standard, clean fermentation before racking to barrels for souring, whole fruit added later down the line. Maybe there is just enough Brett from the barrels (they only do a cold water rinse before using them).

They just started playing with Brett for the first time in a couple known infected barrels. I got to try the first batch from those barrels (blended with a “clean” sour beer) it was interesting, but a bit acetic for my tastes.

DerekA
08/19/10 02:36 PM  
Re: Pedio
Mike, I live in PDX and have been to Cascade quite a few times, they have always told me they are using lactobacillus culture. Also they vent the cask bungs during aging, so this would suggest lacto as pedio doesn't produce CO2, correct?

The only beer that I've picked up any brett in from them was the first year of Vlad the Impaler, after a while in the bottle there was a slight brett note.

Mike T
08/19/10 03:52 PM  
Re: Pedio
It certainly sounds like there is lacto in their "mixed lactic culture" but I don't think lacto can turn a beer sick. Whatever it is, impressive that they can sour such big beers.

Agreed, I had a slightly Bretty Apricot, but the rest of their standard beers have been super clean (including the Vlad, but that was from a keg in cold storage). I really enjoyed the Summer Gose they had on, need to brew one of those.

Al B
08/19/10 08:19 PM  
Re: Pedio
More often than not Pedio will spit out alot of diacetyl. Like Lactobacillus, not all Pedio species or strains are created equal - especially with environmental strains that often come about barrels.

I have created acidic strong beers with just Lacto (not the commercial one, but an envirnmental strain. I have also encountered diacteyl from a Lacto starter and slime-producing Pedio starter - again environmental strains.

In any time using Pedio, I use Brett. But its not to say a strain of Saccharomyces that hangs around in a sour brew could not also absorb diacetyl too. Sacharomyces will if the particular strain is tolerant to lower pH.

Lastly, the bugs will only do as much as what you start with - your wort.

Al B
08/19/10 08:26 PM  
Re: Pedio
<<Al when you say yeast extract is this what you are talking about or something different?>>

Yes - yeast extract has the highest amount of essential nutrients, but one can substitute - I've used WY nutrients with good results too.

 
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