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mphilleo
09/08/10 07:23 PM  
3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
Hi everyone, this is my first post on the board, but hopefully it's something you can help me with. Just a quick background. I've been homebrewing for several years, have worked in a microbrewery and my claim to fame is my Belgian heritage. That aside, let me jump to my question...

Not long ago, I used Wyeast 3711 in a Saison I made about a month ago. When it was done fermenting in 12 days, I put my beer in a cornelius keg and primed it to simulate the cask aging some Saisons go through. I had a bit extra in the carboy, so I pulled some off of the fermenter, put it in a bomber and primed it separately.

After a week or two, I put my Saison on the tap and force carbed it the rest of the way. During the 3 weeks it sat in the kegerator conditioning and carbonating, it became a great beer in its own right. Crisp, clear, spicy, estery but it had only minimal yeast funk or barnyard/earthy characteristics. I chalked it up to the way the yeast behaved and enjoyed it for what it was.

Today, however, about a month and a week later, I dug up my bomber and opened it up. Well, lo and behold, it had the character of the 3711 along with some intriguing Saison Dupont-like yeasty earthiness and barnyard aroma. It was even more enjoyable than the one I had on the tap. The only real difference is that I had the bomber priming in a room with an ambient temperature of 70 degrees Fahrenheit.

What I'd like to know is if any of you folks have theories as to how I developed that wonderful character in my beer. It's not really something 3711 is known for, but I suspect it has something to do with secondary fermentation in the bottle or the fact that it continued to sit on the yeast for an extended period. Whether the temperature of the room is a factor, I don't know. If you have any ideas on how I may be able to replicate this in the future, I'd appreciate it!

jaymo
09/09/10 01:39 AM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
3711 has been my favorite strain lately! I've used 3711 many times this past year with a variety of grain bills for various saisons. I've tried different temperatures for primary fementation, etc but haven't kegged any. It's all been bottle conditioned.

I get the spice and slight earthiness in pretty much every batch, but I haven't come across any barnyard. Fluke perhaps?

da
09/09/10 01:34 PM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
One thing to note is 3711 is a vicious attenuator, it never seems to stop, so your bottle conditioned beer could have kept fermenting since it was at 70. Maybe the extra fermentation or carbonation made the earthiness stand out more.

As to barnyard/funk, I've never found this on any 3711 beers, maybe the bottle had some residual brett in it?

brewinhard
09/09/10 07:19 PM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
When you poured your bottle I am assuming you left the sediment behind. If you did not then that might contribute to your increased yeasty profile vs the kegged version. I have used 3711 before and never any funk either, but got mostly citrus and spice, not even much earthiness. I am currently ditching the 3711 in favor of my all time favorite strain 3724 even though it is a bitch to work with. I have a 1.055 saison going right now with 3724 at 80 degrees plus for 3.5 wks and it is only down to 1.016. Patience is such a virtue with this strain and will return serious rewards if you wait.
jaymo
09/09/10 09:52 PM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
The highest FG I've had using 3711 so far is 1.002, with or without heat belt hasn't made a difference in attenuation.

While I haven't used 3724 much due to the difficulty brewinhard mentioned above, I've been considering fermenting a batch mainly with 3724, then adding a bit of 3711 later once the first strain slows down. This should attenuate it well, but still yield a lot more of the fruity character from 3724. (I think one of the podcast interviews with Odanata mentions using a mixed strain like this with 10% 3711 for attenuation if I remember correctly.)

Some of the earthiness in my saisons I attribute to dry hopping with an ounce of Saaz. It lends a *very* subtle spice/earthy character that's tough to even pick out as hop-derivative, but it complements the spice character of the 3711 strain nicely.

sixbillionethans
09/09/10 11:52 PM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
I've made 5 batches of beer with WY3711. Definitely one of my favorite yeasts. I've never gotten anything but citrus (i.e. juicyfruit) and spice from it. I've even hopped with Centennial and Amarillo to make a "citrus" saison.

I've got my 1st saison with WY3724 in fermenter right now (90F).

Converse to mphilleo's observations, I've noted one negative about WY3711 is it ferments so fully so quickly that there is little chance to impart any funkiness via brett. This is a very minor negative given it's flavor profile and versatility. I'm curious to see results of my current saison to see if mixed fermentation would be interesting or not.

mark
09/10/10 12:30 PM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
"Some of the earthiness in my saisons I attribute to dry hopping with an ounce of Saaz. It lends a *very* subtle spice/earthy character that's tough to even pick out as hop-derivative, but it complements the spice character of the 3711 strain nicely."

I used an ounce of Goldings at flameout in a 100% 2-row table saison with 3711, and it complimented the yeast profile quite nicely. Gonna try Mt Hood next time.

I dryhopped a bigger 3711 saison with 2oz of amarillo, and I found it overpowering, gonna cut it back to 1oz next time.

WitSok
09/10/10 09:49 PM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
I never had barnyard/funky either with this yeast. I get moderate citrus esters and pepery phenols. I wish 3726 was a year round strain. I find it very similar to 3724 without the sluggish performance.
jaymo
09/11/10 01:43 AM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
sixbillionethans-

I recently did a 10 gallon batch of my usual saison and split it into 2 seperate 5 gallon primaries. One half just used 3711, the other half I also added the dregs from a bottle of Jolly Pumpkin Bam. I racked the first half to secondary to dry hop last week and finally got around to the JP half. It *definitely* had both mild lactic tartness and mild brett character, even after 2-3 weeks. 3711 may not leave a lot behind, but try adding the brett in the primary and see if that helps you.

Alternatively, you could try cold crashing the majority of the 3711 out, then adding brett and a little maltodextrin or other food for the bugs.

A third option would be to add a small amount of oak cubes with the brett. Just make sure you boil the heck out of the cubes in repeated changes of water to leech out a lot of the woodiness. Soaking them in beer for a few days prior to adding them to the fermentor will also help take out some of the wood. The oak should still provide some nutrients for the brett over time without you having to worry about the 3711.

brewinhard
09/11/10 08:50 AM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
Love the JP dregs. Soured up a wit big time for me 3 wks in the keg!
B-Dub
09/11/10 03:56 PM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
Added dregs from two bottles of Orval to 5 gallons of 3711 Saison in a keg. Loads of brett coming through even though the FG was low.

BW

tom sawyer
09/12/10 06:30 PM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
My latest farmhouse ale with 3711 started at 1.060 and finished at 1.003. I thought the gravity sample had a little earthiness to it, we'll see what its like carbonated. That is one voracious yeast, its more like a wine yeast than a beer yeast.
DBear
09/13/10 12:52 PM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics

Sorry for the threadjack mphilleo

brewinhard

I will be using 3711 for the first time for a 1.060 saison with Pils, Wheat, Munich, no sugar. What types of hops have you used with the 3711 for bittering, flavor, aroma

-Cheers

jaymo
09/13/10 01:44 PM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
I've been going with almost all Saaz additions, except for one addition of Hallertauer at flameout. It's been working out quite well.

Jolly Pumpkin dry-hops Bam with Crystal which is another option.

brewinhard
09/13/10 01:46 PM  
Re: 3711 and Saison Dupont Characteristics
DBear-

Mostly Kent Goldings, and Hallertau. With my last few batches I kept the hop additions all the same meaning straight EKG or straight Halleratua. I know, boring, but I make saisons for the yeast qualities.

 
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