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Author Replies
smellysell
12/19/10 07:25 PM  
Black Saison
Any of you guys have a good black saison recipe?

I'm thinking wlp565 along with pils, a little rye, and some midnight wheat. Will probably do 10 gallons and sour half of it up.

Mike T
12/20/10 02:13 PM  
Re: Black Saison
A couple friends and I have been doing one each fall for the last three years. We started out with something like 10 Commandments (raisins, rosemary, orange zest), moved on to dates and black cardamom, and just brewed a fig, anise, and buckwheat honey version. The base beer is always pils, some unmalted grain, Munich, some dark crystal, and something like Carafa special for color. We’ve had great luck going sour/funky with them. Here is the most recent one: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/12/fig-honey-anise-dark-sasion.html

Your recipe sounds good to me, the rye should go well with the yeast. Just watch that 565, it can be tough to get a dry beer especially in a dextrin heavy grain bill. We used it for this year's batch, along with Brett C, and some dregs to get it the rest of the way.

jaymo
12/20/10 05:29 PM  
Re: Black Saison
I would think pitching 565 and then following it up with a pitch of 3711 after a few days might provide the best of both worlds. Fruity 565 esters, and spice & dryness from the 3711 added later.
smellysell
12/20/10 11:45 PM  
Re: Black Saison
I've used 565 a lot with good success thanks to this board. I just start it off at 90 degrees and hold it there until it's done. Always finishes nice and low for me that way.
brewinhard
12/21/10 07:30 PM  
Re: Black Saison
Don't you tend to get fusel alcohol production starting your fermentation at that high of a temperature? At least I have IME especially with a stronger OG beer. I have had the best results starting at 68 degrees and letting it ferment at that temp for 48 hrs and then ramping it up to as high as I can get it. The ester production is nice with no fusel/ethanol aromas or flavors.
smellysell
12/23/10 01:04 PM  
Re: Black Saison
I've never gotten any fusels with 565 using that schedule. I'd never try it with any other yeast though.
dougriddle
01/16/11 08:59 PM  
Re: Black Saison
I've got a hankering for a black saison too, but I don't have a lot of experience with some of the specialty roasted malts. Would some of you mind offering a critique of my proposed malt bill?

with 6 Gallons

Belg pils-10 lbs

Wheat-1.75 lbs

Roasted Wheat-.75 lbs

Special B-.25lbs

(possibly 1lb of dark sugar)

Hops-2 ounces KGoldings @60 minutes

1.5 ounces Saaz @10 minutes

Spices-undecided, but probably a mix of thyme, lavender, heather, chamomile, and black peppercorns

Wyeast 3711

Ideas? Criticism? I'm definitely trying to keep it simple for my first dark saison. I basically want that awesome saison yeast quality, but with some extra spices and a smoother malt backbone. Love what you guys are doing on this board,

Rob B
01/18/11 11:06 AM  
Re: Black Saison
Doug..

I like the grain bill and the sugar addition, however if you want simple I would drop the spices altogether and let the 3711 shine. Pitch around the mid 60's and let if rise into the lower 70's.

dougriddle
01/19/11 10:40 AM  
Re: Black Saison
Rob,

Thanks. Think I'll hold off on the spices for my first 3711 attempt, or at the very most one spice that I can recognize. I guess the lower temps work a little better to compliment the grain bill for this style of saison?

Rob B
01/21/11 03:40 PM  
Re: Black Saison
3711 does not require the extreme heat that 3724 does. You can ferment mid 60s to low 70s and still finish ridiculously dry and have that pepper character. Most of my saisons finish with single digit gravities within a week.
jaymo
01/22/11 02:30 AM  
Re: Black Saison
In my experience, 3711 has quite a pronounced spice character from yeast alone, but not as much in the way of fruity esters as some of the other saison strains. I'd second the idea of dropping your spice additions altogether for your first attempt. Good luck and keep us posted!
GoldenBoy
01/22/11 11:57 AM  
Re: Black Saison
I just make a black saison using 3711 and it went from 1.062 down to 1.005 in a week (or less). Fermented around 67-68 for 4 days, then put on the brew belt and upped it to 75 for about 3 days.
sl8w
01/23/11 10:51 AM  
Re: Black Saison
I've been screwing around with black saisons lately. In my prior attempts, I used pilsner malt base, as I do in my standard saisons. But I didn't like the results when I added the dark malts. I've tried adding a little crystal malt to balance the dark grains, but the final gravity stayed too high. So in my last batch I when with vienna base malt. In the samples I took before adding brett, I think the vienna provided a little more sweetness, which helped balance the dark grains, but still allowed it to stay dry since I used almost no crystal malt. I also tried a 100% vienna saison, which I didn't care for (as compared to a pilser based recipe), but I think the vienna worked nicely in the black saison.
danger
01/23/11 11:04 AM  
Re: Black Saison
i've done 2 "black saisons" and each time the dark malts overwhelmed the flavors of the yeast. might try again this summer, but not really sure what i'll change.
smellysell
02/02/11 01:38 AM  
Re: Black Saison
Going to brew this up this weekend with the original recipe from my first post. Will add some sugar once the krausen falls on the one I won't be souring to help dry it out more. Want to leave the sugar in the one I'm souring for the bugs.
Dougriddle
02/11/11 01:28 PM  
Re: Black Saison
Malt bill

Belgian Pils 9 lbs

German Malted Wheat 1.5 lbs

Toasted German Wheat (350F, 25 minutes) 1 lbs

Melanoidin .5 lbs

Cara-Pils .5 lbs

Belgian Special B .25 lbs

Black Barley .5 lbs

Dark Brown Sugar 1 lb

Hops

Styrian Goldings 2 oz 90 minutes 3.4%

Czech Saaz .5 oz 90 minutes 3%

Czech Saaz 1.5 oz 10 minutes 3%

Mash @150 for 1 hour

OG 1.060

FG 1.002!

Pure Oxygen for 2 minutes

Fermentation started @68F, then gradually ramped to 76F over 5 days. Gravity was 1.009. Split half of the wort to carboy for wood aging. Rest of the wort was put back into fermenter for 1 day at 76F, then slowly dropped to 67F over 3 more days. FG was then 1.002.

Color was/is dark brown, not black unfortunately. Taste was slightly roasty with a dark sweetness. Smell was both fruity and phenolic with some solvent notes coming through. Luckily the taste wasn't solventy. I suppose its just the youth. We'll see how carbonation goes...

dougriddle
02/11/11 01:37 PM  
Re: Black Saison
Oh yeah...I'm having a bit of a problem with efficiency using Belgian Pils malt (from Castle). I am batch sparging, so maybe there might be some loss there? I dunno, this was my 5th all grain attempt. Every time I've used Belg Pils, I've been short on my gravities. I've done one Robust Porter that used 2 row as a base and hit the numbers right on...
TimC
02/12/11 09:16 AM  
Re: Black Saison
Doug, to help efficiency try a step mash like what is mentioned in Brew Like a Monk. Something like 113F - 145F - 158F.
smellysell
02/12/11 08:16 PM  
Re: Black Saison
Funny thing is I always have a hard time when I brew saisons with overshooting my gravity for some reason. Only thing I can figure is that I usually use either rye or wheat and maybe that slowing down the lauter is doing it?
jaymo
02/13/11 01:12 AM  
Re: Black Saison
I picked up a 50 lb sack of Belgian pils (MFB brand)malt awhile back, so I've gotten to use it quite a bit lately, and haven't noticed any significant differences in efficiency with it.
dougriddle
02/13/11 02:31 PM  
Re: Black Saison
Definitely time try step mashing. Does that require extended mashing or just a reduced sacch time? So my normal 90 minute mash for a pils heavy mash would be 15min @113, 15 minutes to raise to 145F, 30 minutes @145F, 15 minutes to 158F then 15min @158F? Brew Like a Monk is totally on my list...Thanks guys!
 
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