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Jason3384
02/17/11 09:40 AM  
No Boil Beers
Hey all, I have been reading some of the threads about no boil beers and I really want to give it a go. I have read about using it for a berliner weisse. Are there any other styles it would work for? Would it work for a wit? I read Witsok's blog about his berliner weisse experiment, but I never saw any feedback on how it finished out - was it drinkable? Any advice would be greatly appreciated as the information on the web seems fragmented without a single great authoritative treatise on the subject. Thanks
tankdeer
02/17/11 10:59 AM  
Re: No Boil Beers
It could work for a wit, but keep in mind that eventually, the beer will sour. There is lacto on the grain that can survive the mash and mash-out temps, and make it into your final beer.

I've personally done it on a Berliner and it was fantastic.

brewinhard
02/17/11 11:35 AM  
Re: No Boil Beers
That is the only way I make my Berliners nowadays. I do utilize a 20 minute boiled low AA% hopped decoction mash to get minimal IBU's into the beer before adding that back to reach a mashout temp and sparging. You could probably make a nice small oud bruin in this fashion as well.
Jason3384
02/17/11 11:42 AM  
Re: No Boil Beers
Is there a point when the beer will become undrinkable.Is this a beer to be consumed very quickly. I have read some information about relatively considerable aging for a low gravity beer (6 months)
Alex
02/17/11 12:07 PM  
Re: No Boil Beers
I have a no boil berliner that has been in the bottle for going on 5 months now, and while it is not quite as sour as I might like, it still tastes great.

I think that since the mash rest takes place in the 150 degree range (and the decoction further inhibits some microbial activity), and low heat pasteurization data suggests that effective stabilization is reached in 30 mins at 145 degrees, many of the more unsavory microbes are knocked out provided good sanitation procedures are followed after the mash. However, since lactobacillus is thermophillic, some of those bugs will remain and slowly continue to sour the beer as time passes, the rate/intensity of which will generally be temperature dependent

ChrisF
02/17/11 08:32 PM  
Re: No Boil Beers
I can not attest to anything beyond making Berliners with the No-Boil-Decoction method. I pitched the lacto and german ale yeast simultaneously and did a FWH. I aged it for 8 months, ( I added 5 pounds of fresh frozen golden raspberries from my garden), this is obviously not conventional or recommended. After reading a wealth of info on the Shutupaboutbarclayperkins blog regarding berliner weisse, I decided to added the dregs of two Orval bottles at about the 3 month point. I bottled this beer a month ago and it is absolutely the best I've ever made. Better than any of the commercial examples I've had to date. At least for a Berliner I can say, it's the way to go.
WitSok
02/17/11 09:00 PM  
Re: No Boil Beers
Unforunately I had a disaster. The beer did not taste bad, but the aroma was off putting. I figured it would go away with time. The taste was mainly a citrus like sourness (lemon like) with some sour milk notes. The aroma was pungent cheese. At time it even seemed like baby vommit. Normally it doesn't get all that cold in November/December around my neck of the woods and I can usually lager in my garage. So I put the beer in the garage and lager. I figured some cold aging would mellow out the aroma. Well it got unusually cold. I checked it and it periodically and never looked completely frozen. But one day the carboy broke and the entire batch was lost.

I will give it a go again, but there are a few things I would change:

1. I would only go one day before picthing yeast. I had waited till I saw signs of fermentation. By this point I think some bacteria took too strong of hold.

2. I'd use a decoction to reduce the initial bacteria level.

Again, I'd like to try this again and I really want to try a oat batch and rye batch. In each batch the grain would substitue in place of the wheat.

WitSok
02/17/11 09:02 PM  
Re: No Boil Beers
I'd add that my young BW was much more sour than 1809 beer I purchased. Again, I think I waited too long to add yeast.

I sent out three culture to people, haven't heard how it has worked for them. Hopefully they didn't have that strong cheese aroma.

smellysell
02/17/11 11:00 PM  
Re: No Boil Beers
My no-boil berliner smells like dirty socks, and not in a good way.
jaymo
02/18/11 02:56 AM  
Re: No Boil Beers
A friend of mine did a no-boil BW that had some vomit aroma. It did mellow after months, but I can still pick it out in the background after having smelled it strongly early on.

We think it came/comes from butyric acid ( I think produced by enteric bacteria.) We tried splitting up the resultant slurry and re-pitching it into 2 more batches, one brewed by each of us, the theory being that the acidity killed off the bacteria that produced the vomit aroma. The vomit aroma did not appear, but there were other off aromas in those batches. I actually preferred the first one by far once it had aged awhile.

brewinhard
02/18/11 10:13 AM  
Re: No Boil Beers
If you are looking for sourness, then do not worry about having to drink this one up too fast. When making these kinds of beers, I mostly hear (and have experienced) that people have trouble getting their beer to sour enough for their liking. If you are a true sourhead, then letting the final product sour and age for awhile is no problem, ie a timeframe is not necessary to consume by. If you approach a point where the beer starts to get too sour for your liking, simply keep it cold in a fridge whereby the low temps will decrease the metabolism of the bacteria present more or less stabilizing your sourness.
ChrisF
02/18/11 11:00 AM  
Re: No Boil Beers
at no point during the fermentation of my No Boil BW did I notice a vomit smell. As a matter of fact, the beer has a really nice floral/sweet tart aroma with just a hint of a corn/wet hay smell in the background. Perhaps I just got lucky.
Jason3384
02/18/11 01:17 PM  
Re: No Boil Beers
Thanks for the input. I guess I am gonna need to buy some wheat malt. I am definitely going to give this a try. I especially like the idea of having something uniquely different to drink and a really short brew day.
tankdeer
02/18/11 03:44 PM  
Re: No Boil Beers
Regarding aging, I didn't find it necessary. The beer was sour and delicious after only a few weeks. That being said it did seem to get a little more complex with age. And has held up fine. I have a couple bottles that are about 3 years old and taste great
Shadetree
02/24/11 11:48 AM  
Re: No Boil Beers
I have a Berliner "Ryesse" (malted rye instead of wheat) that was done no boil, no yeast, no hops - fermented with just a handful of raw wheat. Now at the 8-month mark, it's clear, super sour, dry as a bone, but unfortunately has a strong aged parmesan smell that will hopefully fade with some more aging.
sl8w
02/24/11 01:45 PM  
Re: No Boil Beers
I've done several no-boil berliners, and have never experienced any off-putting aromas. I have done "no-boils" with a mash hop decoction, and as a true no-boil with a 170F mash out. I then pitched Wyeast lacto culture and yeast. The only time I've ever gotten such aromas is when I've done sour mashes.

For those who have had off-putting aromas, how were you introducing lacto? Cultures? Sour mash? I guess I wonder whether such aromas are from the no-boil (i.e., wild organism surviving the mash), or from post-mashing inoculation techniques.

smellysell
02/24/11 11:50 PM  
Re: No Boil Beers
My no boil that smells like complete funky ass was done using the Wyeast berliner blend. Shitty thing is it tastes really great if you can get past the aroma.
Jason3384
02/25/11 08:24 AM  
Re: No Boil Beers
So I never did the no boil, I went back to my standard sour mash method and brewed a wit on Wednesday. Once I get a good stock of drinkables on hand I will then do a no boil. Although I hemmed and hawed before I put the wort into the kettle. I did a day and a half sour of the whole mash, and it really was not sour enough. If it is still not sour enough once it ferments out, the next wit I will let the wort sit for a couple of days
 
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