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AlexL
04/05/11 01:09 PM  
Fantome Clone
I'm planing to attempt a Fantome Clone in the future and was hoping to get some input here from those that have tried this and gotten good results. what I am going off of now is the description of Printemps in Farmhouse Ales. It states an OG of 1.066, malt base of pilsner and munich, and Hallertauer (doesn't specify whether its early or late hop additions, and that candy sugar is used.

1. does anyone have a guess as to the likely percentages of the malt bill?

2. anyone have an idea of the likely IBU's and whether there is generally a significant amount of hop flavor/aroma?

3. I plan on using Wyeast 3725 combined with Fantome Dregs. would people recommend adding the dregs when the 3725 is pitched or should I add them during the secondary?

4. Finally, I've read somewhere that Fantome adds fruit juice in the secondary. has anyone had success with this? if so what kind? how much?

thanks for your help!

jaymo
04/05/11 02:57 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
I would personally add the dregs in the primary. I've gotten good results doing sour saisons with 3711 and Jolly Pumpkin Bam dregs in the primary.

Fruit juice is one of the things on my list to play around with in saison recipes. I haven't done that yet, but New Glarus made a Berliner Weiss awhile back where they included 10% grape juice. (5% Reisling, 5% Pinot Grigio, if I remember correctly.) It seemed to get a nice balance in that beer. I figured when I get around to trying fruit juice additions, I may just pick up some grape juice from a wine kit and use a small portion of that. Good luck!

DaveG
04/05/11 04:48 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
I actually just attempted something similar to this a couple days ago, however, instead of focusing too much on the recipe, I used a very basic saison recipe with a primary addition of dregs cultured up from a bottle of fantome saison.

One thing to note with my use of fantome dregs in the past is that they seemed to contain some pedio or something that produces a ton of diacetyl. This time I chose to make a starter from the dregs using a stir plate to make it a pretty hostile environment for pedio. It seems to have worked since I could not detect any diacetyl in the starter, but there was plenty of lactic acid.

In the end, I pitched a decanted 1 liter starter made up from the dregs and then about 24 hours later, I pitched Wyeast 3724 from a starter at high krausen. I'm thinking that I waited far too long on pitching the saison yeast as the fermenter was already churning big time from the dregs.

If you're not in a huge hurry, I'll report back in a month or so when the beer is finished fermenting. Whatever you end up doing with the dregs, it might be a good idea to try to ensure that you don't have any excessive diacetyl producers, unless you have a long time to wait for something to clean it up.

da
04/06/11 02:32 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
I wouldn't add the dregs until 2ndary, Fantome is notorious for having a very aggressive lacto strain, even in 2ndary all of mine resulted in a much more sour beer than Fantome.
AlexL
04/07/11 02:33 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
Thanks everyone,

does anyone have a quick guess on the grain bill?

da
04/08/11 11:03 AM  
Re: Fantome Clone
I don't think the grain bill is particularly important, but start with 80/20 pils/munich.
JackBee
05/17/11 03:17 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
I've worked on 2 clones so far this year.

At first, I didn't have access to Fantome dregs -- so the first batch I bottled with Lambic blend and stored the bottles at cellar temp. After a couple of weeks, it tasted a lot like a young, clean Fantome. A few months later, it started tasting more like a gueuze, so it's unlikely that I'll use a lambic blend yeast again. It completely lost the "Fantome" character.

Second attempt, tried harvesting Fantome yeast from 3 different variations and vintages of Fantome. Each time, there was no visible activity. Although 5 days later, the starters don't smell sweet. I pitched each starter in the secondary and tasted a few drops from each. They were quite sour, but not at all barnyard or funky. We'll see how this one turns out as I plan to bottle within the next two weeks.

FYI - I used the biere de garde yeast for the primary.

Paul V
05/18/11 01:46 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
I just brewed up a Fantome clone yesterday. I harvested dregs from a '08 and a '09 bottle. Also pitched Wyeast 3724 with it. If this turns out well I will try and harvest the yeast from my '95,'97, and '02 bottles.

Will report back in a few months when I am able to pull a sample.

Did anyone add strawberry to their saison? The '08 had a very nice strawberry flavor that I would love to recreate. The '09 had more of a pear and straight pils flavor.

da
05/18/11 03:05 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
I'd like to hear your thoughts on those 95,97, and 02 bottles, always interesting to hear how they age. Though, not sure if you'll get any yeast working after that long in the bottle.
Paul V
05/18/11 03:49 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
I can't wait to find out about them as well. I am going to try and pick up some more bottles when I am in Belgium in a month.

I am still curious about the fruit juice additions?

JackBee
05/18/11 03:53 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
In the first batch, I added 4 lbs frozen strawberries (1 lb fresh [which I froze to break down], 3 lbs frozen with no sugar added) and a bottle of apricot nectar. I squished all of the strawberries until it was mostly juice.

I could taste the strawberries after the first few weeks and now it has almost completely disappeared.

JackBee
05/18/11 03:56 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
The Second batch: 2lbs frozen raspberries (no sugar added), 2 lbs peaches. I squished them up pretty good.

Don't know how that one has turned out yet.

JackBee
05/18/11 03:59 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
My dregs were from '07 (I think) and '08 and all I seemed to get was lacto.
Paul V
05/19/11 01:13 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
What temp is everyone letting their saison reach?
JackBee
05/20/11 01:11 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
80F-90F
JackBee
05/26/11 02:35 PM  
Re: Fantome Clone
turned out great! still a bit "peachy" but that should age out well. Very close to the last bottle of Printemps I drank, although it's already slightly more sour and still a bit young.

I agree with da, the grainbill doesn't seem to matter too much. I used 2 lbs of raw wheat and a bit of smoked munich in this batch and it's still really close.

Next time (plan on brewing in the Fall) I'm going to try using more smoked malts and maybe maple syrup...

 
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