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Adrian
08/25/11 07:46 PM  
Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyces C
First I've heard this:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/documentation/AdvancedBottleConditioning.pdf

"It should also be noted that your choice of yeast you use to ferment the beer plays a role in the amount of brett character that will ultimately develop. Using a plain American ale yeast will give you a lot less character than one that is full of phenolics and higher alcohols like the Belgian strains."

Interesting. So, for example, if I fermented an English ale in the mid 70's to purposefully develop some fusel alcohols, and then secondarily ferment with B. Clausenii I'll get different results than if I first used Chico yeast in the low 60's.

smokinghole
08/26/11 07:54 AM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
It makes perfect sense. Since I started experimenting with brett in corked bottles I've noticed interesting occurrences. First beer I did it was was a tripel. I dosed a couple bottles of tripel with a pipette squirt of RR Supplication (I think). Even after just a month there was a perceptible difference between the non-brett bottle and the brett bottle. It seems that the brett was absorbing some of the higher alcohols and esters for metabolic purposes. I had done six bottles and after being scared of them over carbonating I only have one bottle left which is probably way over carbonated at this point. The difference between the brett bottles and the non brett bottles was so drastic that they seemed like two completely different beers. Last time I had the brett bottles it had less esters but no funk going on. I have a bottle or two left from March sitting in my inlaws basement.

In my research on my school library I did run across an academic paper about how brettanomyces will consume esters and other compounds in wines. Unfortunately most papers on brett revolve around the wine industry at the moment.

Gordon A
08/27/11 02:47 PM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
I've heard mutterings like this before. Makes sense- everyone who's aged with brett knows that it tends to strip out primary yeast character.
Adrian
08/27/11 09:24 PM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
The quote seems to indicate that the primary yeast byproducts will have an affect on the type of secondary yeast byproducts. It doesn't say that the secondary yeast byproducts cover up and/or remove the primary yeast byproducts such that the primary strain used is irrelevant.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself properly as this seems like a point of view that few home brewers are considering. Most home brewers seem to think that primary yeast matters not and the quote clearly states otherwise.

sl8w
08/28/11 02:47 PM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
Another quote I found interesting was this one: "Unlike yeast, these bacteria will not actually ferment sugar to produce

carbonation." This would suggest that brett-only beers cannot carbonate. Is this consistent with actual experience? I've done 6-7 brett-only beers, but keg carbonated them all first, then beer gun to bottle.

Inhiding
08/28/11 02:54 PM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
The term bacteria is the key word in the above post. Brett is a yeast and produces Co2. Co2 is Co2 regardless of sach yeast vs Brett yeast. Is the bacteria referring to lacto, pedio and the such? I can see that being the case but many Belgian producers uses a dose of brett when bottling, or am I missing something?
tankdeer
08/29/11 11:42 AM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
Brett bottle conditions just fine. As you said, it's a yeast, not a bacteria.
Mike T
08/29/11 12:47 PM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
Agreed, never had a problem bottle conditioning 100% Brett beers.

In an interview on the Brewing Network Jeff O'Neil (Ithaca) cites Neva Parker (of White labs) in saying that Brett only produces 50% of the CO2 that Sacch does from an equivalent amount of gravity reduction... not sure I buy that since for the gravity to drop you need something to exit the beer, and if it isn’t CO2 then what is it?

Adrian
08/29/11 01:30 PM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
"...not sure I buy that since for the gravity to drop you need something to exit the beer, and if it isn’t CO2 then what is it?"

Alcohol? Acids?

Cody
08/29/11 03:21 PM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
<<Alcohol? Acids?>>

And phenols and esters.

To get a gravity drop, it doesn't have to exit the beer; it just has to be converted into something else with lower density.

Mike T
08/29/11 04:20 PM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
"To get a gravity drop, it doesn't have to exit the beer; it just has to be converted into something else with lower density."

I'm no chemist/biologist, but that doesn’t make sense to me. For one substance to be converted into another less dense substance the remaining weight has to go some where, right? I mean the same molecules would be present so it shouldn’t matter what molecule they form as long as they are dissolved in the solution. Unless molecules are removed from the wort (CO2 gas escaping for example) the gravity shouldn’t change. Unless the volume gets larger, leaving the same weight in a bigger volume...?

I know some Lactobacillus create Lactic acid without significantly impacting the gravity of the wort since they do not produce CO2 (I noticed this with a starter I made from the bugs living on grain). If anything acetic acid production by Brett requires oxygen and would actually raise the gravity of the wort slightly (right?). Some amount of the gravity will be converted into yeast cells which will settle out, but other than that I can’t think of another yeast process that would lower the gravity without creating carbon dioxide.

My 2 cents, anybody have another theory?

Cody
08/30/11 10:23 AM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
Mike...I hate to say it, but you're absolutely right. Even if it split one heavy molecule into two of half the size, you'd still have twice as many. Hence the same weight. My apologies. (I'm no chemist, either...clearly.)

Could it be some other gas? Like some strains produce H2S? Or something that isn't water-soluble?

Almighty
08/30/11 12:52 PM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
For all of my Brett Only Beers I prime the same I would with a Sacc strain and the carbonation is always where I want it.

And also in Wild Brews they talk about the relationship with esters, acids, and alcohol. See pages 100 - 103.

"Ester production requires the presence of both an acid and alcohol. Esterification only occurs when yeast provide enzymes (esterases) to act as a catalyst in the presence of acids and ethanol."

sl8w
08/30/11 07:05 PM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
Oops. I apparently didn't read the document closely enough. Thanks for setting me straight.

I'm no chemist either, but I think Cody was right the first time. Gravity isn't a measurement of weight, but a ratio of density. Let's say you had a container with just water and CO2. The CO2 would float above the water because it has a lower density than the water. But if you could somehow convert the CO2 in the container to diamond (pure carbon) and oxygen, then the diamond would sink (higher gravity than water) and the oxygen would float (lower gravity than water). The weight of the container would stay the same.

Take what I have to say with a grain of salt (see above).

JMcG
08/31/11 09:37 AM  
Re: Fusel and Phenolics Contribute to Bretttanomyc
Don't mix up molecular weight with density.

Clearly H2O is a smaller molecule than ethanol (C2H5OH), yet ethanol is lower density. Specific gravity has to do with mass per volume compared to water (the reference).

One mole of ethanol takes up more volume than one mole of water.

Some molecules are very dense (compact), while others are strung out or folded loosely so they do not fit together as compactly.

So, SG of the wort could decrease without necessarily producing the same amount of CO2 (or ethanol). Other (flavor) molecules are produced.

 
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